In this episode, CCEF faculty discuss the complexity of forgiveness. They address common misconceptions, the true meaning of forgiveness, the challenges we all face, and how to cultivate a forgiving spirit. They also emphasize the importance of understanding forgiveness as Christians, highlighting the balance between justice and mercy.

Mentioned in this episode: Our ministry is fueled by the generous support of our donors. If this podcast has been an encouragement to you, would you consider giving to CCEF today? Your gift would help us continue to produce free resources like this for the good of God's people. You can learn more about ways to give at ccef.org/donate.

00:00 Introduction to Forgiveness
00:56 Misconceptions About Forgiveness
12:48 Understanding What It Means to Forgive
21:00 Challenges in Forgiveness
26:07 Cultivating Forgiveness
35:57 Closing Thoughts and Prayer

Hello and welcome to our CCEF podcast, Where Life and Scripture Meet. My name is Gunner Gundersen and I serve as the Dean of Faculty here at CCEF and I'm here with my fellow faculty members and colleagues, Darby Strickland and Esther Liu. And before we dive into our topic for today, I just want to share a brief announcement with you. You may know that our ministry is really fueled by the generous support of our donors. And so if this podcast has been an encouragement to you, would you consider giving to CCEF today to help us continue our mission of restoring Christ to counseling and restoring counseling to the church? Your gift would really help us continue to produce free resources like this one and many others for the good of God's people. And you can learn more about ways to give at ccef.org/donate, ccef.org/donate.

Our topic for today is something that every person is going to wrestle with, every person's going to have to think about, every Christian is going to wrestle with, I think, in a very specific way in light of the things that we know and have been taught. And every Christian is going to have to extend and also receive from others. It's so fundamental to our relationships, both with the Lord, of course, but also with one another. And that topic is the topic of forgiveness. And as we delve into this topic, I just want to first give a quick kind of note of context here. We want to share here probably more principles for general situations relating to forgiveness. There are all kinds of forms of severe harm that can create a lot more delicate and complex questions about forgiveness. We will touch on those, but that really is another kind of conversation, when it comes to some of the most severe forms of harm that people can go through. And so we hope that these principles are helpful to you regardless of the situation in which you find yourself or the reason why you clicked on this podcast and wanted to listen. But we just wanted to share that there is more complexity that's out there that Scripture does speak to and helps us with, but that we won't necessarily focus on in this conversation. 

As we get started, instead of starting with what forgiveness is, let's first start with what it's not. Can we just talk a little bit about some misconceptions about forgiveness? What do you all think are some misconceptions that are out there about forgiveness?

That's a really important question, Gunner, because when I speak to people, I learn that forgiveness is often so misunderstood and misapplied that it's caused them great grief. And so I think it's just really important that we start there. And one of the things I hear a lot is people think once I forgive, I'm forgiving someone, I'm denying that the harm that they've done me, that it hasn't impacted me. I'm letting go of the impact that they've had on me. And for a lot of situations, people hurt you and the hurt is still really real. And just forgiving someone doesn't mean that that pain is gonna go away. So a lot of people are confused. I felt like I've forgiven him, but I still feel a lot of pain. Maybe I haven't forgiven them or yeah, I can't forgive because I'm still hurting. And I just think that really twists people up quite a bit.

I think one of the things that comes to mind when I think of misconceptions is the expectations for what the relationship will look like after you've forgiven someone. I feel like I grew up with some type of notion that forgiving means that I'm reentering into that relationship with that person as is, as it was before, that it'll go back to normal, that things will just continue on as they were. And I think as I've progressed through the Christian life, I feel like there's probably more nuance there. That forgiveness doesn't always mean that the relationship is restored to what it was before or that it should be. There are notions of wisdom, what is wise. There's notions of, is this person trustworthy? Have they really changed? There are just a lot of questions and a lot of variables and factors of, does forgiveness necessarily entail rebuilding that relationship and restoring that? And sometimes it's not. And part of the reasons why there can be so many hangups around forgiveness is thinking that if I really forgave someone, that would mean that things would go back to normal and I'd have to be able to go back to normal with this person. And sometimes that's actually not what wisdom calls us to. So that's been something that's been formative for my own processing of what forgiveness is and what it isn't.

I think a common misconception is found in that phrase, “forgive and forget,” and the assumption that forgiveness requires a literal forgetting, which I think sometimes we can take on as the burden that we carry as part of forgiveness. I think it can come from a place like Hebrews 10:17, where in this new covenant promise, God says, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” But we know that God is omniscient, and so literal forgetting is not necessarily the meaning there. He's really quoting from Jeremiah 31:34, where there's these two statements that work together where God says, “For I will forgive their iniquity,” which is literally what he does, and “I will remember their sin no more,” which is this way of speaking like a human being who I'm going to really not remember this, but it doesn't mean a literal forgetting. And I think Darby, you've had some helpful thoughts on this as to, What does forgiveness actually mean if it doesn't mean literal forgetting all the time?

Yeah, I think it means when the Lord talks about forgiving us, it means he does not deal with us in accordance of what we deserve, right? And I think that's what he's saying when he says, “I'm not going to remember your sins anymore.” In other words, I still know who you are and what you've done, but I'm going to love and care and provide for you without that in mind because you're forgiven. Your debt has been canceled. I think that's just a great way of even understanding as humans, we, as Esther is saying, we have to be prudent and wise and discerning. We can't deal with people in a way that they haven't sinned against us, right? But we entrust them to the Lord to do justice. So in other words, I'm not gonna repay you for the harm that you caused me. I'm gonna entrust the harm, I'm gonna entrust justice to the Lord. I'm not going to deal with you according to what you deserve, which is a little bit different of a nuance than God, who can continue to pursue us with this amazing, lavished grace that we really don't deserve. And so there's like a little difference between God's pursuing love and what's wise for us to do in situations where there's a breakdown in relationship. God always pursues his people, but I don't think he calls us to pursue people that do us harm, that are going to... We don't continue to entrust our heart to people who are going to gossip. That's just not wise. So I'm probably confusing a lot of things there. I mean, it's really sticky. But there is something different in that, and yet the principle is the same. So I'm not going to deal with you as how you deserve, but how I proceed with you requires prudence and wisdom.

I think of some of the New Testament instructions about dealing with severely divisive people and how there are these callings to stay away and to give warnings, maybe as a church, but then to stay away. And it's not this calling that, well, if you forgive, then you simply reenter back into whatever relationship it is that they want. There are other scriptural callings as part of this broader ecosystem of relationships that have to be considered when we think about forgiveness.

Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. And the beautiful thing as a believer is that doesn't apply to us and God's pursuit of us, which in some ways it makes it easier for us to forgive others. If we know that God doesn't have a checksheet; you've repented of being divisive, you've repented of being harmful. He extends relationship, which I think motivates us, it frees us up to love people that deeply in a way that extends them forgiveness. 

I feel like there's just, it is this very tricky, complex, intricate dynamic of what does it mean to forgive, but also what does it mean to also hold in tandem Scripture's value for accountability and for there to be consequences to sin and wrongdoing. so, so often we think of forgiveness, sometimes the visual image that we have is this person keeps sinning against me, I have to keep forgiving them. And it's almost this visual or metaphor of becoming a doormat of sorts. Like I just have to take it, I just have to tolerate it, I just have to be the recipient of it over and over again because Scripture calls me to forgive. And yeah, there are these other facets to God's ecosystem of how he deals with sin, and forgiveness is one of them. But forgiveness doesn't necessarily erase that there are consequences to sin that do appropriately need to be faced and that there is sometimes or oftentimes appropriate accountability to that wrongdoing. And forgiveness doesn't mean all the consequences are away and there's no accountability and everything is fine and dandy. There's just a lot of nuance here. But I think as we kind of are just beginning to dive into those differences and nuances, it helps just to know that there are categories and complexity here. Otherwise, forgiveness just becomes this impossible endeavor and task that actually isn't how God has defined or has envisioned what forgiveness would be and what it would function as in relationships. And so, yeah, this is probably just the beginning of a much larger discussion, but there are a lot of intricacies here and a lot of misconceptions here.

I think another simple one that goes along with that is if you've forgiven someone, you're not allowed to ever bring it up again. And that's a different form of forgetting, is not talking about it, or even as you're then trying to repair relationship, not being able to talk about what happened with someone, or when you see the pattern reemerging, people just think, well, if I've forgiven that, I shouldn't talk about it. And again, it's just those are just some of the complexities, is when is that wise? And when is it necessary to talk about what has happened?

I think of my own marriage and think of how it can be—it's very helpful actually over the course of our ongoing marriage to continue to have conversations about areas where I may need to grow, for example. So I might've asked forgiveness for some area of neglect in my marriage or for some area of communication that's a pattern for me. And it wouldn't be helpful for me or for my wife if I were to just say, well, you forgave me so we can never talk about that again, because it may be helpful to connect some various dots. And at times it has been, to say, yeah, that's something that I was talking about working on and I need to think again about that impact on you or the family or my area of ministry. And it's really helpful actually when that relationship is in a place where we can continue talking about those things. And it can be helpful to bring up even a situation or an example where it has been dealt with. It's just the way in which it's brought up and the purpose for which it's brought up and how that goes.

So we've talked a little bit about what forgiveness isn't, and there's certainly more that we could get into there in terms of clarifications, but can we turn now and talk a little bit about what is forgiveness? And I don't necessarily mean a simple phrase or a one-sentence definition or something that's catchy and sticky, because sometimes those things can miss some important elements that are part of it, but can we just talk a little bit about what forgiveness is?

You know, when I teach even just my children about forgiveness, I'm trying to make it as simple as possible, right? So I'm not able to capture all the nuances. I talk to them about entrusting the Lord, the vengeance or the justice, right? It's giving to God the desire to seek justice for being wronged. It's entrusting whatever in the situation that the Lord will deal with it, removing the debt, the other person's debt to you, in a sense. And that doesn't mean that, you know, when I'm talking to my children, that doesn't mean that I don't welcome restitution. You know, if one child harmed another, I definitely want the offending party to apologize, or if they broke something to fix it and to restore it, that happens. But I don't want the offended child, you know, to go in the child's room and take another, you know, thing out of their room. It's entrusting that the Lord is going to do justice. Maybe that is by moving in the other person's heart. Maybe it isn't. But it's his to deal with, it's not ours.

I think of 1 Peter 4:19, Darby—“Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful creator while doing good.” And that image of entrusting our souls, entrusting our situations, entrusting the wrongs that have been done to us to the Lord and continuing to do good rather than returning evil for evil and believing and knowing that he sits in the rightful place of judgment and of redemption and providence and he is the One that ultimately is entrusted with making all things right, either in this life, partially as he sometimes does, but certainly in the end.

As you're saying that, Gunner, I remember one counselee of mine from a long time ago, she had a husband who routinely fell into pornography use and she really struggled to forgive him in the sense of, she's like, if I forgive him, there is nothing that's going to prevent him from doing that again. If I don't, if I let this go, I'm just afraid to let this go because what's going to prevent him or bring him sorrow? So there was a real hang up for her and I understood exactly what she meant. If I am willing to forgive, I am so fearful that my husband's gonna have no consequences, right? And that's not, I think, what we're saying what it means to forgive. It's like entrusting her husband's behavior to the Lord and his repentance so that she is not dealing angrily with him. Now she doesn't necessarily have to be in relationship, right? There's going to be consequences for his constant sin against her. But she was afraid that the Lord would not work if she forgave him because there'd be no consequence for him. And that was a real deep struggle, which made a lot of sense when you're dealing with someone who has a recurrent sin.

I think you're describing something like the feeling that my forgiveness will enable this person's sin. It's almost a Romans 6 question—“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?” where this idea of how the gospel works so fully in our lives to forgive us can sometimes lead to the idea that will therefore that encourages somehow or gives freedom to or leniency to this pursuit of sin, and that's actually not what we're doing, it's not what the Lord does with us. And that knowledge, I think, helps us to forgive in very difficult, painful situations like what you described.

Because it is costly. I think, Esther, you have talked about Tim Keller talking about absorbing the debt, absorbing the cost, right? In that situation for that woman, it's really costly for her to extend forgiveness.

And it's something that makes so much sense when we've been so hurt by someone else's actions or decisions that we wouldn't want it to happen again. And so that instinct of, maybe if I try to enact some system of justice or maybe withholding forgiveness is actually the way for them to feel the severity of their sin, maybe that's the thing that will turn them away from their wrongdoing is if I hold on to bitterness or resentment or trying to do something to make that person pay or repay the costs that they've incurred and the harm that they've done. It becomes this, such an understandable, like I have so much sympathy for it and I probably see this in myself all the time in my own struggles with forgiveness of, it's my way of taking matters into my own hands for a sense of justice when wrong has been done against me. But I love that phrase of the calling to entrust those things to the Lord, to know that there's another character in this story, that's not just between me and the offender, or even me as the offender and them as the one who was hurt. There's a third character in all of this who is God, and he's the One who is trustworthy for these burdens and these injustices and he is the vindicator. He's the One who pursues what is right and what is good, and we can truly trust him for that so that we don't feel like it's all up to us to ensure that that justice plays out. So I really appreciate that definition, Darby, or even that description of what we're doing when we move towards forgiveness. It's introducing the third character in this story. It's not just between the two of us.

Yeah, I was gonna say, and the Lord too, as much as he's after justice, he's also protecting us, right? And there's something when I have to forgive someone, it's because I'm vulnerable and I'm fearful that I'm gonna be hurt again. And so if I can look at the Lord as my protector, it's easier for me to relinquish that justice, versus I have to be my protector. That third character is super important.

There's these three words that are crystallizing for me as we're sharing together and it's the word absorbing, in terms of absorbing the cost. But that does also put the focus on me and that's part of it, it is part of what's happening and it's a very substantial, significant part of what's happening. Then there's the word relinquish, which I'm finding is another very helpful word, where we're relinquishing our sense of right to punish or to react in kind. And then there's the word entrust where we're actually entrusting, not just relinquishing from ourselves, but then actually entrusting that responsibility to the Lord and ensuring that we seek to keep him in his proper place as the sovereign Lord over all things, and the One against whom all sin is ultimately done. So I find all three of those words to be very helpful as particular angles of thinking about forgiveness. And even as I'm participating in this conversation thinking that if I just went with one of those things, there may be an aspect that I'm missing out on when it comes to the Scriptures' fullest teaching on forgiveness.

Can we talk for a minute about what makes forgiveness difficult? What are some things that make forgiveness difficult?

There's so many things, Gunner. If I think of people in my life I've struggled to forgive, it's because they haven't said they're sorry, right? Or they haven't acknowledged that they've caused me hurt. Scripture still calls it, I have to forgive that. They're not asking for forgiveness. Does that mean I have to extend it? So it's a lot harder when it's something that you're doing, when it's a relational hurt that you now only, there's no way to process that with the other person. It's solely between you and the Lord. I think that makes it more difficult. That's one of the things that can make it more difficult.

I think of the child's cry when a toy gets taken away from them or something and they just cry like, that's not fair. And I feel like that refrain and sentiment will be on my heart a lot when I'm struggling to forgive. It feels like someone did something and what is fair in that situation is for me to do something back. Just that kind of give and take, and forgiveness just feels very counter to that desire that I have for fairness to take place. And if you did something to me, I really want to do something back at you. And so, yeah, I think I was really compelled and won over by, I first heard the phrase “absorbing the cost” from Tim Keller. It was a quote, I don't know if it's from a sermon or a book, but that phrase was so helpful for me because I felt like it rightly acknowledged that there is a cost, that in situations where forgiveness is needed, there is a cost, there is damage, there is something that happens that is truly negative. And it made sense of that experience of, I do feel hurt or I do feel some sort of way about this. And so, the sentence, this phrase, it's validating that there is a cost that took place and it's giving voice to that human experience of, I'm hurting and this was really hard to be on the receiving end of. And it's really hard to be able to respond in a way that says I will absorb that, I will take that on instead of making you repay in some shape or form, I will bear the cost of that and move forward and treat you and have a will towards you that is genuinely good, even though what you did was genuinely bad. But yeah, it just flies counter to my innate desire that there would be fairness and justice in all of these things. And that if you're the one who incurred the cost, you're the one who pays the cost. But instead it's like you incurred the cost, you caused that. And now I feel like I'm paying or yeah, you know, being the one to absorb it. And that's just really hard to do. That's really, really painful.

It is, but what you've just described is the cross, right? I mean, it's just this grotesque imagery of all forgiveness requires a sacrifice. And so when you describe it that way, it just puts the cross so much more central in our view. And then we're just reminded of what has been done for us. But it doesn't mean that our forgiveness does not require a sacrifice from us. I just love the way, yeah, it describes the cross so well.

I think of Exodus 34:6–7, when God reveals himself to Moses and he has these two parts of that self-revelation. One is, you know, the Lord, the Lord, who's basically merciful and abounding in steadfast love and forgiveness. And then in the next part, he talks about how he doesn't let the guilty go unpunished. And when you stop and read that and just sit back and take those two things in, you go, that's not possible. How can you be both of those things? And that self-revelation gets repeated constantly throughout the Old Testament into the New Testament of who the Lord is. And then, as you said, Darby, it just crystallizes at the cross where you see like justice and mercy meet, where sin is fully dealt with and the penalty is fully meted out and it's fully absorbed. And because of that, God therefore offers forgiveness on that basis to all who will believe. And it's such a remarkable picture of that tension just being resolved only in Christ.

Can we talk for a minute then about cultivating forgiveness? We've talked a little bit about what it doesn't mean, what it does mean, what can be hard about it. And we've kind of been brought to the foot of the cross here just to think about the fact that forgiveness is costly. How do we then cultivate this?

I think for myself, there's just been seasons where forgiveness has been harder to come by. The hurts just feel deeper and more significant or things that have happened relationally that actually have changed your trajectory of relationships, they have ongoing consequences for what my life even still looks like today, five, ten years later. And so I think I've just been helped by the idea that it’s really the Lord who helps me forgive. It’s not something I have to do in my own strength; it's something I can ask for help with. I think whether it's I'm saying to myself, you know, I'm not ready to forgive or I don't know how to forgive is different than saying I refuse to forgive. But I think experientially, we often condemn ourselves because we're not yet there versus recognizing there is an inkling in me, I feel stuck, I need help from the Lord, conversation with other people, and just to be encouraged that God wants to help us forgive, he wants to help us to be faithful to what he's asking of us. It's something that he does for us and through us. So I just think I know I've been helped in moments where I've been stuck to think, this is not something I can conjure up. This is something I have, another way to relinquish. I have to really relinquish to the Lord. When in his good timing is he going to be able to release my heart from this and help me move in a more genuine way towards forgiveness?

One of the things that has been instrumental for me in being able to move towards forgiveness, even when it feels hard, is being honest to God about who I am, how I've needed to be a recipient of forgiveness so often in my life, how there are so many ways in which I've hurt and done things that if I could, I would undo, redo, if I got a chance, and how much the wellbeing of my life is actually grounded and anchored in the reality that I'm forgiven and I continue to be forgiven. And I feel like I have no strength to be able to extend forgiveness to others, especially if that hurt is particularly painful. I don't feel like I have the strength and resources to extend forgiveness unless I realize that my whole life has banked on me being forgiven and that there are ways that I still fall short, that I still need his forgiveness today, that I still need other people's forgiveness and graciousness towards me today. Someone often said this, I don't know where this originated, but that sentiment of at the end of the day, we're more alike than different. When it comes to any of us here, that when a wrong has been done, it's easy for me to demonize or just pin that person as a bad person and I'm good and they're bad and they hurt me. It’s humbling to, as I try to cultivate forgiveness, it means cultivating the humility and the self-awareness that there are actually things that I really do share in common with this person. And there's a neediness that I bring to the Lord as well and to other people as well, that I desperately need forgiveness as much as I need to extend it. I feel like that's been key for my own journey of cultivating forgiveness.

The same thing was on my mind, Esther, that so often when I think about the Lord, I know that he's the one who forgives me, so I'm the object of his forgiveness. But sometimes when I think about forgiveness in horizontal relationships, I think of myself as only the subject of forgiveness. I'm the one who does the forgiving, and other people are the ones who need forgiveness. And just so humbling to realize over the years that no, I actually have all sorts of idiosyncrasies and weaknesses and struggles that require at the very least patience and endurance and tolerance from other people. And I also have so many sins and frailties that actually either neglect others or can hurt others that I need their forgiveness and I need their kindness to be shown to me through the means of forgiveness as well. And it's so helpful and can be so softening to reflect on first God's forgiveness of me, which is just astounding, and then also how other people have shown such patience. And I see this in Matthew 18, of course, in the famous story that Jesus tells about the servant who's forgiven this incalculable, unthinkable debt. And he goes right out and he starts just shaking this other person and demanding that they pay him for a much smaller debt, and how that story has lived on through the centuries in Scripture as this unforgettable picture of how easy it is to be so demanding towards others when the Lord has been so gracious and merciful to us. And then how sanity-producing it is to reflect on what God has forgiven me. And it's striking that that comes right after the question from Peter, when Peter comes up and says to Jesus, Lord, how often will my brother sin against me and I forgive him? As many as seven times? And Jesus said to him, I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times. And just the overall idea that just Peter thinks that he's being really forgiving in the suggestion that he's making, and Jesus says there's so much more depth to this and the grace that you've received and been shown than your understanding, and leaves that story behind for that reason.

What’s so beautiful about that too, I always am really aware of after Christ's death and resurrection and after Peter's betrayal, he comes after, you know, it’s just lived out so beautifully for Peter and, you know, Jesus says, go and get my disciples. And Peter, after his betrayal, there would be no way in my imagination if I was Peter that I would still be counted a disciple. And so he actually gets to live out Christ's forgiveness, the depth of that, by being named after such a huge betrayal. I think that is that sweetness of the Lord's pursuit of us that just makes worth thinking and contemplating forgiveness sweet, even when it's a challenge.

There's one more thought that came to mind as I think about the journey of forgiveness. And I think so often the automatic response as a Christian when I've been around is, oh, you have to forgive. Like that's often like the first thing that comes to my mind. And it's been really sweet to learn that the Lord has more things to say to our pain and hurts that we've endured than “You need to forgive.” Like that also coexists with invitations to come to him. That also comes with promises that he is a God who sees us and knows us and knows what we are enduring and knows that we are people who need comfort in the midst of that pain. Thinking of Psalm 56 where the psalmist says, you have kept count of my tossings, put my tears in your bottle; are they not in your book? And yes, the call to forgiveness is a genuine and very important calling that is true for all of us to move towards. And yet it's not the only thing that God says to us in our pain. And I think so much of my own journey of forgiveness was really having to learn the eyes that the Lord had for my pain and for me in the midst of that pain. And that there was care, that there was compassion, that there was grieving with me, alongside me. There was a seeing, there was a knowing and all those things. And knowing who he was for me in the midst of that pain is actually—I'm thinking of a particular season of my life—knowing those things and growing the knowledge of who God is for me in my pain was what ultimately allowed me to entrust the situation and to entrust this pain to the Lord and to really move towards forgiveness, because I knew that the pain was seen and it was dignified, it was honored, and that he had beautiful things to say in the midst of it. So I didn't need that person to repay me. I didn't need justice from that person. I knew I was loved and cared for in that. So I feel like I'm so thankful for Scripture. I'm thankful that there are all these different passages and that the Lord has more things to say to us than we could even imagine, and they're beautiful.

Let me close with a word from Scripture, Ephesians 4:31–32. “Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” And Father, that's our prayer as we close. We worship you for being a forgiving and merciful God, shown most clearly through Jesus Christ. And Lord, I pray specifically for those who are wrestling with the difficult gift of forgiveness, wrestling with how to extend it to others, wrestling with strained and pained relationships. I pray that you would give them grace to reckon with and wrestle with how you have forgiven them and that you would give them wisdom, discretion, and an expanded spirit to be able to forgive as is appropriate in those relationships. And Father, we pray even for miraculous restoration in all the places where that's possible, even if that takes more time than we wish we have and more time than we're willing to wait. And I pray, Lord, that you would give each of us a forgiving spirit, entrusting these things to you, and that you would work in your time in ways that we can see and worship you for. In Jesus's name, amen.