CCEF’s second distinctive states: “Scripture comes from the mouth of God.” But what does that mean for everyday ministry, counseling, and relationships?

In this episode, Gunner Gundersen is joined by Jonathan Holmes and Aaron Sironi to discuss how God’s Word does more than provide answers—it shapes the way we listen, care, pray, discern, and walk alongside others. Together they explore how Scripture forms our priorities in counseling, helps us understand people, and serves as the lens through which we interpret both life and the world around us.

The conversation also considers the richness of Scripture’s many genres—from the Psalms and Wisdom Literature to the Gospels and Song of Songs—and how each uniquely equips us to care for others. Along the way, they reflect on parenting, marriage counseling, personal devotional life, and the indispensable role of Scripture in the life of the local church.

Mentioned in this episode:

• Register for our conference at ccef.org/nc26.
• Learn more about our video series that equips churches to wisely handle domestic abuse at ccef.org/becoming-a-refuge.
• Learn more about CCEF's seven distinctives at ccef.org/about.
• Listen to Part 1: “The Personal God Gets Personal with Us” here.

00:00 Conference Registration & Becoming a Refuge Giveaway
01:15 Introducing CCEF's Second Distinctive
04:08 More Than a Doctrine of Scripture
06:16 What Drew Us to Biblical Counseling
09:25 How Scripture Shapes the Way We Listen
13:27 Counseling as Relationship, Not Technique
17:01 Scripture Shaping Our Priorities
20:24 The Richness of Scripture for Counseling
23:26 Why Genre Matters
29:54 Favorite Genres of Scripture
33:29 A Counselor's Personal Life in the Word
39:39 Scripture as the Lens for Understanding People
44:17 Scripture and the Life of the Local Church
47:13 Deuteronomy 8 and Living by Every Word of God

Hello, friends, and welcome back to our CCEF podcast, “Where Life and Scripture Meet.” My name is Gunner Gunderson, and I have the privilege of serving here as the Dean of Faculty. Right now we are deep in preparations for our 2026 National Conference, and now is a great time to register. If you register by 11:59 PM on June the 16th, you'll receive our lowest conference rate before prices increase for both in-person and virtual attendance.

And as an added bonus, everyone who registers by June 16th will be entered into a drawing to receive a prize of significant value, and that is the church edition of our new on-demand teaching series called Becoming a Refuge: Responding to Domestic Abuse in the Church. This video series by Darby Strickland really helps facilitate discussion to help churches offer wise, careful, and compassionate care to those affected by abuse. This particular version, the church edition, actually grants access not only to a pastor or a small group, but to your entire church. You can register now for the conference and enter that giveaway at CCEF.org/nc26.

Well, today we're continuing our series on our seven distinctives, which we've just begun. Jonathan Holmes and I had a great conversation with Ed Welch, our colleague, over our first distinctive, “The personal God gets personal with us.” And we're excited to dive into our second distinctive today as we just re-articulate our vision at CCEF for biblical care and counseling and one-anothering ministry. And so I'm glad to be joined once again by Jonathan Holmes, our executive director.

As well as Aaron Sironi, a longtime faculty member. Welcome, gentlemen.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you, Gunner.

Well, as we get started here, I just want to walk through—each time we do this—our seven distinctives briefly, just so we can hear them in the fullness of kind of the package that they are together, and articulate them together as a picture. And so here's the first: The personal God gets personal with us. Second, which we'll talk about today: Scripture comes from the mouth of God. Third: We are embodied souls shaped by a world of influences. Fourth: Our hearts are active. Fifth: Help and change follow a path, but not a script. Six: Care and counsel are pastoral and at home in the church. And seven: Biblical counseling engages with the voices around us. 

And if anyone would like to learn more about these distinctives, you can find longer descriptions that explain them on our website at ccef.org/about. Ccef.org/about. Well, as we get started, guys, I would love to start, as we will each time, with reading not only the distinctive itself, Scripture comes from the mouth of God, but also to read the description that is expressing it. And so here's the description:

“The Spirit presses the very Word of God into our hearts. He reveals Jesus. In Jesus we find all wisdom and goodness. No one else can so deeply nurture and sustain us. The Spirit applies Scripture to our hearts. The Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. Here are implications of this truth: Scripture must shape the details of our counsel, including how and why we listen, what is important, how we speak, and what we say. Scripture must be the lens through which we see the world and its many observations about people. For example, we can see “defense mechanisms,” through the lens of humanity's tendency to run anywhere except to the Good Shepherd, in order to defend ourselves from the reality of our sin and suffering, to hide from the Lord, and to blame others.

Put another way, we want to translate everything we hear, including the best and most helpful observations of the secular world around us, back into the language of Scripture. In short, we aim to understand everything through this question: Who is the Lord, and what has he said?

And guys, I'd love to invite you in a moment to reflect a little bit on this distinctive and some elements of the description. But just as a quick reminder, these distinctives are rooted in our confessional statements, but they're not identical to our confessional statements. They're not meant to be a doctrinal statement themselves. And that's why they don't necessarily read like a set of systematic beliefs. They read more conversationally in a way that emphasizes and accents certain priorities for our particular ministry of one anothering, of counseling and care. And so these are more like priorities or emphases or accents. I might describe it this way: like if our doctrinal commitments are kind of the roots and the trunk of who we are, then these distinctives are kind of like the leaves and the blossoms that we want growing out of those doctrines, really asking, what does our doctrine look like in practice? 

And so again, before you guys jump in, I just want to say, you know, we we love the might call them the “in” doctrines of Scripture, the inspiration of Scripture, the inerrancy of Scripture, the infallibility of Scripture, things you would find in a traditional strong doctrinal statement. We love the Bible's authority, its sufficiency, even its perspicuity. That's a great theological term that ironically means clarity. 

And yet this second distinctive is not meant to just restate those roots that you'll see in our confessional statements. It really is meant to emphasize how God personally works in us through his Word, and how his Word helps us to help others. And so as that as somewhat of a foundation, can you guys talk a little bit about how you might just initially reflect on or respond to this distinctive of Scripture coming from the mouth of God?

Sure, I can jump in here, Gunner. This distinctive, which brings relevance to biblical counseling and how that shapes what we're doing in a conversation with somebody who's struggling and suffering and tempted and tried. This distinctive is really what drew me to biblical counseling because before my contacts with biblical counseling had been pretty superficial. And so

Scripture had been applied in maybe one part of counseling, and yet everything else looked like the secular training that I had received. Or Scripture was the only part of the biblical counseling that was the emphasis and the relationship, the listening, the what happened in the counseling conversation actually was minimized and and and demeaned. And so I just really wasn't interested. But when I saw Scripture being applied on every level—to framing to how we're relating, to how we're moving, what we're pointing to, what's guiding our view of the heat, we would say, or the the blessings in life, to what we're actually doing in the room—that's when I started to be drawn to biblical counseling. That to me was qualitatively different than anything I'd ever experienced.

Yeah, I hear you saying something really important there, Aaron, which is that it's, this distinctive is more than about kind of just one specific way that we might use Scripture, if you will. simply the like communication of something to another person or some other singular element of it. But I love the phrase you use, “Scripture working and shaping us at every level of that process.”

Yeah. Yeah, I would I would just add an “amen” to all of that. And similar to you, Aaron, when I think about what drew me to biblical counseling, it wasn't just using the Bible or understanding the Bible as kind of like this giant concordance that we kind of look through for various answers to what ails us. But I think first and foremost, when we think about Scripture coming from the very mouth of God, we realize that that there's something living and active and alive about Scripture that when we are opening up Scripture, when we are speaking Scripture with our counselees, we're inviting them into a personal encounter with God. This is the God-breathed Scriptures that we have in our hands. And, you know, there's that wonderful little anecdote in the gospels where Jesus is talking to Simon Peter and he's saying, “Hey, you know, where do you want to go? Are you going to go somewhere else to, you know, find happiness or whatever it might be in life?” And Peter so honestly says, he says, “Well Lord, whom else to, you know, whom else should we go to? You have the words of eternal life.” And I think that it's that instinct and that truthfulness that draws us at CCEF to want to endlessly study Scripture because we realize the treasure that it is for us in counseling ministry.

Each of these distinctives has some sense of a truth statement and then implications of that that flow out from that. And when we get into the implications part of this distinctive, I love how it talks about Scripture shaping the details of our counsel. And the first illustration it gives is how and why we listen.

Which is a striking thing because this is clearly saying this distinctive is that Scripture comes from the mouth of God. It's something he is speaking, he's revealing Himself to us. Sometimes it's easy, as I mentioned earlier, to start then with well, “Our only goal in interpersonal ministry is to communicate things to other people.” And yet here it starts with the how and the why we listen. Can you talk a little bit about how Scripture can shape things at that level, in the how and the why we might listen and relate to another person?

Absolutely. At the heart of the gospel, even looking at what who the Messiah is and what he has done for us, we see the Christ being the one who has has taken up our sorrows, has seen us, has heard us, has made our concerns, our deepest needs his own, and has interceded for us. And you see just this beautiful, at the heart of the gospel, is a God who knows and who serves us and who carries our burdens and takes on to himself our needs, our deepest need of forgiveness, of  atonement. And you see as a counselor, you think, “How can I now… I can't forgive this person, you know, and make atonement for their sin. No, but I can reflect something of the Lord as I listen well and actually bear their burdens and move towards them and carry these things in ways that are concrete and helpful and pointing them to the Savior, right?” Pointing them to Christ, who is the one who ultimately and daily is this. And so for me, my role as a counselor is deeply shaped, is only as good as how I reflect this central dynamic of the gospel in my life.

Yeah, I mean, I think that when you open up Scripture and you see how it describes and shows us a personal God who gets personal with us, which is what we talked about in the last episode, you see that throughout the pages of Scripture. The very first words of God to humanity are words of conversation and invitation to human beings. And so it's a real privilege, I think, for us as counselors then to carry on that mission, to carry on that pattern of God's interaction with his people. As God moves towards his people, as he listens to them, as he inclines his ear to them, as it says in Psalm 116, we get to imitate that behavior because we are his children. We are made in his image. And as image bearers of God, this isn't a technique that we do. It's not just simply something that we do to get a particular result. No, we do this as biblical counselors because this is truly what the Lord made us for.

He made us as people that are designed to engage and enter into these relationships where we speak, we listen, we take in, we think together, we love together, we weep together. And you see all of those, I don't even know if you'd call them principles or priorities, but you see this so vividly displayed in Scripture. And that's what guides us. That is what shapes us.

I can really appreciate that, Jonathan. What we're trying to do in counseling conversations…they're not interventions, they're not techniques, they're not methodologies first and foremost. They're a way of relating to a brother or sister or someone who is not yet saved, right? And this isn't a gimmick. This isn't to produce some result, you know, as a secondary gain. This is who we are as Christians. And it goes beyond how we listen and how we speak. It’s that those certainly are central, but it's also how we structure a counseling conversation. What do we do in there with a an individual, with a couple, with a family? And one of the things that I have done that has been entirely shaped by Scripture, and specifically, as I was reading through Paul's epistles, almost always he prays for those that he's that he loves, for the churches, for the people he knows, and he tells them what he's praying for them. It's fascinating. And as I started to look at that, I thought in marriage counseling, I think the conversation, the high point, the pinnacle of the conversation should be prayer together.

That we go before our father and we give thanks, just like Paul does in every single time that he prays for his churches, and we ask for something that is needed, whether for ourselves or for our spouse. And so I started to incorporate that in the counseling conversation with in marriage counseling. From the very first session, okay, husband and wife, this is what we're trying to do. And we may, it may take us a few conversations to get there, but this is what the goal is to be able to speak and to listen in a way that at the end of our time together, we really could give both give thanks for each other and we will, and intercede and ask for God to give us what we most need, as has come out of this conversation, and to do that together before our Heavenly Father.

That's not a gimmick. That's not an intervention. That's not a tool. Right? This is who we are. We are children of the same Heavenly Father who need him, who need his wisdom, his forgiveness, his guidance, and who need to intercede for one another and together. You know, most people would say, up until that point, I would hear many Christian authors say, well, we need to pray together as a husband and wife because it develops intimacy. And just something with that, on one hand, yeah, I know what you mean because it does. We're opening our hearts before the Lord together. and we should do this. And yet, in my mind, I was thinking, yeah, but prayer is not a gimmick towards intimacy. It's not right, intimacy isn't the goal. The goal is we're talking to our Heavenly Father and our lives are lived before him.

And we genuinely want to relate to each other in a way that we can pray together for one another. And for me that's how…one little way that Scripture has given shape to how I do marriage counseling.

I think what you just shared there, Aaron, is so important because it's putting together these really important pieces. You're saying you want to pray together with couples and help them pray together in marriage counseling because you see that as a priority in Scripture in the Apostle Paul, so that what you're seeing in Scripture in terms of his priorities is now shaping your priorities in interpersonal ministry, which is a really intricate and appropriate way of Scripture shaping us. And it just goes far beyond other things that are important, but they're just not the full picture, which is Scripture tells me what I then need to deliver to other people. Yes, that is true, but it's a much fuller version to be shaped by its priorities, to be shaped by what we see revealed to us there. I think in terms of even Scripture setting our priorities, how powerful it is in the upper room discourse when Jesus says to his disciples that I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. And so it's clear that he himself in that moment is prioritizing what he shares for that particular time. He's choosing a particular tone. He's really deciding what to communicate for that season and moment of their lives, knowing that the Spirit will remind them of his teachings and communicate more through the apostles later on at a time than they can receive it. And that to me is a great example that is important for me to learn to imitate in my own parenting or my own ministry, as the Lord Jesus is clearly prioritizing things for his disciples in an act of love and an act of seeing what they can take and what they need and what they wouldn't be ready for right now.

Hmm. Yeah, how does that practically play out for you, Gunner? Where Jesus, in that upper room discourse, says, “Look, there's so much more on my heart and mine, guys, but I'm gonna hold off for now.” How does that play out in parenting? What does that look like?

Yeah. An example would be right now, you know, my wife and I have walked through a season of parenting four teenagers simultaneously. And one thing I've learned as our kids have gotten older is that brevity is better for them. And they might have needed more detailed instruction earlier on. And even if I feel like I'd love to still deliver that detailed instruction now, they are moving into a phase of life where they need to be gaining life experience.

Facing some of the independent consequences of their own actions, both positive and negative, both easy and challenging. And so brevity is more helpful. There's so many things on my heart to communicate to them. There's so many things I long to be invested in them. And yet I can see the wisdom of Jesus that's revealed to me in Scripture as he decides to think in a very timely way about what he communicates. And he knows perfectly what his disciples need and what I need. And yet he still allows those things to be gradually delivered to them in a way that is best for where they're at and where they will be in the future. And that's been a really great reminder to me when I'm tempted to try to give too much to a child or all the kids in a way that could be counterproductive and they're not ready for. And it's really helped me to think through how can I see where they're at and what seeds I could sow now that would be helpful in this moment, and yet not try to deliver, you know, all four years worth of dad's college parenting courses to them in one class.

Yeah. And Gunner, I think that's a great example, like what you and Aaron both have referenced of Scripture really shaping not only counseling ministry, but just how we do life. Because if and it is true that we live and we move and we have our very being in God, then all that we do is before the Lord. All that we do should be shaped by the mission and the calling that Scripture calls us to. And that's why I think as biblical counselors, Scripture is absolutely indispensable to the work that we do. In Scripture we have this beautiful, deep, rich tapestry of people, of people who have a whole host and variety of struggles and heartaches and hardships. And one of the things I've always appreciated about Scripture is that, you know, there's never just a one size fits all approach, right? There's never a, there's never a verse that says, “Man, if you just do this, you know, then everything's going to be better.”

And so what that does, I think, for us specifically here at CCEF is it pushes us to really dig into Scripture, to really know people and know Scripture because we realize we're never going to get to a spot where we have complete and total confidence in one particular area, right? “I've got everything I need to know about the Bible and anxiety. I've got everything I need to know about marriage counseling and these people,” because Scripture says, listen, there's there's there's people in front of you who come from a variety of backgrounds and influences and context. And, you know, the way that Jesus counsels and talks to a Samaritan woman in John 4 looks totally different than how he talks to a religious elite in Nicodemus in John chapter three. And it's that type of richness in Scripture that I think is just… it's so animating and invigorating because you realize that in all of these interactions that we're privileged and called to enter into, there's, there's just so many exciting ways and opportunities for the Lord to show up to meet people in their difficulties and to minister grace and hope and mercy to those people.

That's right. And that's when biblical counseling really gets exciting. It's the epitome of discernment and wisdom is knowing which direction to move. And there's not one direction, one solo direction. Typically, when you're sitting with someone and listening and engaging them right where they're at, there might be three or four different directions that are in your mind and you're constantly, you know, going back and forth between those thinking, what does this person most need right now, in this day, in this moment? And sometimes we feel like we misfire. But that is the, the joy of biblical counseling is being dependent upon the Spirit, trusting him, and moving, not being paralyzed by that, but actually moving in a direction that we feel maybe most needed in this moment.

Jonathan, as you mentioned, there not necessarily being a one-size-fits-all approach that there's also not a one-genre-fits-all approach in Scripture. And I love its creativity and how you see God reveal himself and communicate to his people through a variety of genres. Could we talk a bit about that aspect of Scripture and how God has communicated with us and implications perhaps for interpersonal ministry?

Yeah, no, and this is something I think all of us probably have various parts of Scripture or various genres that are meaningful to us. But I would say, yeah, probably in the past decade of my life a genre of Scripture that has meant a lot to me and has come in at times in my own life when I've needed help is just wisdom literature and poetry in Scripture, which makes up a a significant amount of both the Old Testament and some in the New Testament.

You know, we talk about Scripture being beautiful, and I think some of Scripture's beauty comes in its simplicity. And when I read the Psalms, when I read Ecclesiastes or read the Proverbs, like you were mentioning, there is a profound simplicity to it where, in a couple of words or a couple of lines, Scripture can just cut through so many different things. you know, a a simple passage like in Psalm 56, where Psalm 56:9, where the psalmist says, “This I know that the Lord is for me.” And there's an elegant simplicity to that, of, there's not any other bells or whistles to it. There's not a lot of, hey, here's six attributes of God that we're gonna attach to this, or you know, here's a systematic theology attached to it. It's the simplicity of this I know that the Lord is for me. And I think sometimes in biblical counseling, a lot of times earlier counselors, we want to give as much Scripture as we can in counseling sessions. You know, we give them 10 verses and 10 passages. And sometimes, it's the beauty and simplicity of just one verse or one phrase. And that's where I think in terms of genre, I feel like poetry and wisdom literature really shines because there is that type of simplicity that comes in and meets people where they are. And we all, you know, we've all been overwhelmed by suffering at various times in all of our lives. And sometimes it's one simple truth that the Lord uses to break through that, to be a balm to us. And I know that that's one area in particular that I've deeply appreciated.

Jonathan, you're talking about Hebrew poetry and the wisdom literature and the simplicity that God brings through that. You haven't mentioned the Song of Songs. Could you speak a little bit there of how you're using the song?

Yes. Well Aaron, I feel like that's a little bit more in your lane. I know that that's a book that you care deeply about, so…

Yes. Even that, like I love that you've really enjoyed the wisdom literature. I have as well. And I have the Song of Songs. That's something that's just fascinated me over the last few years. And I feel like even the Song of Songs, we don't go to it a ton in counseling because there is a real complexity to the poetry that we see, and yet it functions in a brilliant way. It’s just eight chapters.

So it's short, it's beautiful, it's full of imagery and metaphors. There's a story that runs in the background. And as I have read The Song of Songs, one of the things that I've deeply appreciated is that it functions like a virtual reality experience where you get in as you're reading, as you're taking in the imagery and the story and the poetry, if you're married, you start to experience the very things that is depicting towards your spouse, towards your husband, towards your wife. And even as you take it in and you're as you're experiencing it, it functions in a way that actually stirs up and blows on the embers in your own heart towards your spouse. So that particular genre is just fascinating in how you know God's brilliance in giving us such a gift as the Song of Songs. But you're right, Gunner. There are so many different genres of Scripture, types of literature, right, that are very diverse, that function very differently. So you have the law and you have the historical narrative accounts and you have prophetic books and then you have letters written, then you have the gospels and you have apocalyptic literature, and there it's a cornucopia of communication to us that God has gifted to his people, to his church. And I was just recently last week speaking to an Old Testament theologian, a professor, and he said, you know, I'm teaching this course to masters of divinity students and I'm trying to get them to have a vision. I'm trying to make a case for how we can use the Old Testament in counseling, in one-another conversations.

And he said, “I just, I struggle.” I don't know…sometimes it's hard to have a vision for that or to give a vision for that, where it seems like the New Testament is so much more accessible. And I, and I said, “I beg to differ. Look at the narrative stories that we have in Genesis and Exodus, you know, and even Numbers and just going through and look at the poetry that we have in the Psalms and you know in different parts of the books of prophecy, and on and on and on.”

Places that are just so rich for us to connect our own lives with, but then to to encourage another to see them, put themselves in the stories, to put themselves into the conversations, to to use the psalms to give themselves a voice, to cry out to the Lord, to trust him, right? As you're saying, Jonathan from Psalm 56. The Old Testament, the New Testament is rich as well, but certainly the Old Testament does not leave us in want for ways to deeply, deeply edify and guide us.

Yeah. Gunner, do you have a favorite genre of Scripture?

I mean, I've certainly loved the Psalms for a number of years as I was able to study them academically and then obviously simply as a Christian sojourner and pilgrim on the way. And love both the simplicity that is there, and also the profundity, as Aaron, you were sharing, how the Song of Songs, for example, actually works through what it communicates and how it communicates. And the Psalms are so similar.

I'll also say I've found myself really drawn to the gospels in recent years as well, and love the opportunity to watch these just vivid storylines play out in the life of Christ and to watch the incarnate Son of God at work in the world for my redemption, for our redemption, to watch the way he engages with people of all kinds and the way he is just the fullest and perfect picture of what a human being is, while simultaneously being the full image and embodiment of the living God. It's just a profound set of four biographies, if you will, about his life. 

I had the privilege of preaching through about half of Matthew before the Lord called me to CCEF and just was so struck, not only by the stories and their impact on me, but watching the impact across a diverse congregation really made me want to just consistently be in the gospels and also be really thoughtful about how to keep reintroducing people I'm ministering to to the heart of Christ as shown in those accounts. What I love, guys, is Scripture is so endlessly rich and textured and contoured, and it's such a feast that it invites us to just a lifetime of going deeper. And then I find too, interpersonal ministry only enriches my experience of Scripture as I see its explanatory power in people's lives, as I see its redemptive power in people's lives and my own. And I see the just incomparable resource it is for helping me, and then helping me help others. There's just nothing else that compares to it when it comes to helpfulness and glory. So I just I love that the farther you go into Scripture, the more the years of your life in front of you look like an opportunity to just keep unearthing treasure and enjoying it.

That's right. And the challenge of biblical counseling is, how do we connect the richness of Scripture, of a very particular verse or even phrase in Scripture? How do we rivet that to a person's life? So bringing Scripture to their life and bringing life to Scripture, right? Where they see themselves, they see their hearts' cries, their need. And that to me…the the sky's the limit on how we do that, what that looks like in a conversation, what is most fitting and what that looks like, not just in this conversation, but how can we encourage and set up a person for success and the ability to do this on their own or with with a spouse or with you know a dear friend at a coffee shop. Those type of methodological questions for me are limitless how we do that. We need to grow here, and I can't wait to learn more and more as you know, as I continue to meet with folks.

Yeah. I think that's such a key piece, Aaron, because I think a lot of times in biblical counseling, it's easy to slip into kind of what feels like, hey, I just offer people Bible verses or passages kind of taped on to whatever problems they might have. And so it can feel a bit inorganic and disconnected in that idea of, how do we really labor towards connecting Scripture to life and life to Scripture in a way that's faithful? Right. So when Paul tells Timothy, you know, to study, to show ourselves approved, workmen who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. That's not something that we do in a year or two years. It's a lifetime. And I think one of the things, and I would tell my counselors at Fieldstone this, I think the most important priority, then, for any of us as counselors is our own personal private time in the Word. Before we ever begin to minister the Word in counseling, we have to have that encounter with the Lord.

We have to be people who, you know, as it was said of Bunyan, you know, if you cut him, he bled the Bible because he was so immersed in it. And all of us go through seasons, or at least I know I do, where it's a little bit drier, you know, you find yourself in a little bit more of seasons of roteness or more difficulty. But on a whole, right, we want to be people who are abiding in Christ, treasuring Scripture and allowing it to touch our lives. And I think that's probably something we don't talk enough about, I think, in biblical counseling. We talk a lot about the actual counseling room ministry that happens with God's Word. But I'm really convinced that counselors ourselves, we really have to be first impacted before we go out and minister that Word.

Jonathan, that's such a great point. And I was thinking as you were sharing that I think I used to think that there was one particular angle or verse or truth that must be the go-to for a particular given situation. And in my mind, I would be searching for what that was, and thinking, if there was a really seasoned, gifted biblical counselor here, they would know the thing and the only thing that needs to be done or said in this moment.

There are rare occasions where there is one clear thing that needs to be done above others, but so often when it comes to listening, encouraging, just helping provide support and care or gentle correction, there are various ways in. And I found that oftentimes the thing that the Lord would use would be what he was currently teaching me and what I might have been studying or meditating on recently.

And that doesn't mean that's all the time. I just always take whatever I read that morning and that's what I share. But so often it really would be something that had personally impacted me. And often the more personally it had impacted me, the more it landed with and it resonated with the other person. Because there was a personal dimension to the ministry as the Holy Spirit was using what he had done in me through his Word and channeled that toward them. And over the years, that's been really striking to me that rather than just a one-size-fits-all, anybody that's sitting in the chair to try to encourage this person is interchangeable because the answer is just exactly the same. It actually was he's going to use each of us and how the Lord is working in us through his Word to perhaps share something that might have been a different verse, a different theme, a different image, a different something from Scripture than what you would have shared or what Aaron would have shared.

Yeah. I totally agree with that. And I've I've told people before in counseling training, I really do find that the best, good, solid biblical counseling really flows out of your own devotional life. And so when I was a pastor at Parkside for 15 years, I would teach men's and women's Bible study every semester and we'd be going through a different book of the Bible. And, you know, when we were in Isaiah, almost all my counseling came back to Isaiah. When we would be in the gospels, it would seem like almost all of my counseling would come back to that because every single one of the books in the Bible is a path to Jesus, right? All of Scripture reveals to us Christ. And so you can be in Jonah, you can be in Revelation, you can be in Song of Solomon even, right? And you are gonna be able to have Scripture that meets people where they are and introduces them to our Savior. And I'm like you, Gunner, like back in the day, I thought, okay, I just need that one verse for that one issue. And I just thought it was kind of like a match type of thing. And I've realized like you that it's really not like that. It's all of Scripture is inspired and is given to us by God and it's profitable, right, for a variety of things. And I think it really is our joy then to engage that work for the balance of our lifetime for God's glory and for others' good.

Yeah, and it's a combination because as you're applying Scripture, as the Lord is nurturing you through his Word and you're really, really diving into passages and applying them to your life or others' lives, that doesn't disappear, right? That stays in the background. Even as you're, let's say in 2026, you're studying I say the wisdom poetry and you're applying that, there's always the ability to share with a person or lead a person to something that was from two years ago that was personally meaningful, right? Or 10 years ago or more. You have this diversity, this ability to, to use something very fresh and relevant in your own life, or to, to pan back to something that was powerful and is incredibly relevant to the person in front of you. So you have options available to you, right? They it's funny, I was working with a gentleman in a marriage situation recently. And I have been studying the book of Philippians and have been there for many months. And the person I was co-counseling with when I went to Philippians for probably the third week in a row, she looked over at me and she said, “Aaron, is that the only book you know?” And we, you know, we all chuckled, but that was certainly relevant to me. And it certainly isn't the only book I know, but it was so fresh and so pointing to my own life.

Guys, near the end of this description, there's an important feature to it that talks about Scripture being the lens through which we see the world and its many observations about people. And then it talks a bit about wanting to translate everything we hear, including the best and most helpful observations of the secular world around us, back into the language of Scripture. Could we talk for a moment about why it's so important for Scripture to be the lens through which we see the world, but also its observations about itself, as well as what Scripture does when we seek to translate even the best observations into the language of Scripture. How does Scripture help refine or fill out even generally accurate observations that are being made by folks outside of Scripture?

That's really important, kind of the way that Scripture gives us a lens into even understanding and seeing correctly the clearest observations, the most helpful observations that say secular psychology gives to us. There is a… I love the metaphor that when a person, when the Lord saves a person and gives them a new heart and places his Spirit within them.

He takes a person and transforms them, transforms them from the inside out. Now, when you see that person, there are things that haven't changed. They're still this person, you still recognize them, they still have certain strengths and abilities, and they function maybe in some of the same ways, and yet their hearts are different. Their goals in life are different, they move in a different way, they have a different path, passion, a different heartbeat, you could say. And in the same way, when we're looking at some of the most helpful observations of secular psychology, as we see them, Scripture actually transforms them, I think in a very similar way, where yeah, there's still some things that are very helpful that that look the same, and yet there is a transformation as Christ is Lord in this, in this thought, in this observation. And that is what God intends to do is for that observation, that helpfulness to be transformed from the inside out.

Yeah. When I think about the lens illustration, Gunner, you know, Aaron and I both wear glasses. So I think this will be true. But you know, if I take my glasses off and I don't have those lenses, I'm blind as a bat. I mean, I cannot see, you know, five inches in front of my face. And there's something about Scripture that comes in that immediately brings clarity, truthfulness, defines reality, sets the standard, to which if I didn't have that, I'd be, you know, tripping all over the place because I'm blind. I don't see things clearly. And I think about Psalm 36:9, where the psalmist says, “For the wellspring of life is with you, and by means of your light do we see light.” And it is in the light of Scripture that everything else is clarified. It's…the darkness is dispelled, truth is brought into areas of error. Without Scripture, we're without those lenses and we see, but we see dimly, and we don't see accurately. And so when we are thinking about things that are going on in our world, when we're thinking about things that are going on in the person that we're privileged to meet with, Scripture has to be our lens because without it, we are severely hampered from that work. And so it's again, not just an optional tag-on that we bring with us to counseling sessions, it is, it really is the lens through which we see people and that we do ministry in really every avenue, in every arena.

Guys, there’s so much that we could explore here. It's really a wonderful conversation, but I'd love to end us here just for the sake of time. I'd love to think a little bit, in conclusion, about how we would love to see this distinctive flesh itself out in local churches. How do we hope that Scripture, you know, shapes churches, church members in interpersonal ministry that goes beyond the pulpit, as central, and as vital, as essential, as the preaching ministry is in a local church,how do we hope that this vision of Scripture really affects interpersonal ministry and affects local churches?

Yeah, I mean, Gunner, when I think about this and I think about especially Pauline literature where Paul, who's writing the bulk of the New Testament, it's fascinating to me that so much of what is written is not so much instructions on how to give and deliver a sermon, but it is instructions on how do you live life with other people? How do you get along with other people? How do you handle conflict with other people? How do you just do life together? And so when I think about the beauty of Scripture and how that impacts life in the local church. I think again, as we've said in other areas, it's indispensable. It not only shows us who we are to be in relationship to other people, it tells us what goes wrong typically when we're with other people, and what tends to make it go better. And so when we are thinking about local church ministry, when we think about the actual context in which the Lord is pleased to grow us and sanctify us, does it happen on a Sunday morning? One hundred percent. It's definitely a part of it. But there's definitely a Monday through Saturday element that has to take place as well. And Scripture tells us about that and gives us an inexhaustible source of wisdom to navigate those dynamics.

That's right. We talk about the means of grace and primarily, and rightly, focus on the preaching of God's Word, prayer, intercession, music, worship, those kinds of things, the sacraments, right? But there is also the means of grace that God gives in relationships in the body. And those relationships, right, don't just exist between say 9 AM and and noon on Sunday morning, that they flow outside of that and there is so much sanctifying, encouraging, strengthening that happens as we meet together, as we break bread together, as we check in with each other and lift each other up. So I couldn't agree with you more, Jonathan, and just how it's not a demeaning of the preaching of God's Word or the worship on Sunday morning, but it's an extension of that.

Guys, it's been a really wonderful conversation. And it leaves me just wanting to taste Scripture more and understand it better and to be more helpful with it, to share it with others in ways that are both reflective of its profundity, but also accessible and timely and useful and helpful, and ultimately to let it deeply shape me and into the image of Christ. So thank you for your lifelong investment in Scripture. It means a lot to be able to engage with brothers that have invested so much into Scripture and into people and sought to see those things as wedded together, Scripture and life, and seeking to live at the place where those meet.

Brothers, as we conclude, I'm reminded of the passages from which this distinctive comes. Again, this second distinctive says that “Scripture comes from the mouth of God.” And let me just finish by reading from Deuteronomy chapter 8, near the beginning. “You shall remember the whole way that the Lord your God has led you these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep his commandments or not. And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.” May that be true of us.

Thank you all for joining us for our second distinctive. We appreciate it.